the French tax return is not yet due - it’s not even available yet as explained to you earlier.
It has bugger all to do with what you have to tell HMRC as outlined by @Sandcastle - it is what you are required to tell the Fisc when the French declaration cycle begins which, incidentally, will occur after the reporting period for HMRC has concluded (ie after 5th April 2023 for the 2022/23 UK tax cycle and for 2022 French tax reporting in 2023 - ie this year).
No, I had other income that had taken me over the personal allowance limit for that tax year.
Izzy x
Totally agree with you and just for info, I did! And agreed methods for calculation and deductions - by email. And went back again last year too several times when they lost Madames first return. And to discuss paying the lump sum flat rate pension tax (mentioned elsewhere here on the forum). The inspector also suggested the NHS pension wasn’t taxable in France, so they aren’t infallible too.
I think though it’s maybe not necessary to discuss every single thing, particularly as Graham’s source seems to advise it’s OK. Though maybe it’ll be good to hunt that down! Also using that method the income is still always declared, nothing is missed out, the only issue is which year it’s declared in?
Also maybe there is a point that with rent, figures may be provisional especially if there are losses being carried forward, so rather than amend a previous return it might be best to account for the figures when completed?
Also for declaring UK self employment for the France global income, again the figures profit, loss, NI, tax won’t be calculated until end of the UK tax year?
But the year in which it is declared is an issue because tax rate and/or the tax threshold/bands often change for each tax exercise. So if you declare 2022 income in the 2024 tax exercise instead of the 2023 exercise you will most likely benefit from a higher tax threshold. No doubt you would be happy with that but the tax office may not.
I do not see why any figures would be provisional. The tax year is complete, by May 2023 you are presumably in a position to know exactly what your income was between 1.1. and 1.12 was , and this figure not going to change in retrospect is it. If you received tge money before 31.12 you declare it this year and if you received it after that date, you declare it next year. Nor are your outgoings between those two dates going to change. You still seem to not to be accepting that what you declare to HMRC, has as Graham so eloquently put it “bugger all” to do with what you declare to France. France is not interested either in what tax or NICs you have or have not or will or will not pay in the UK. On income that is not taxable in France, they calculate what your tax liability would have been in France and that is the amount they offset.
I will not continue banging my head, no doubt you will do it your own way and I am not trying to say that your way will not be acceptable because only the French tax inspector can decide what he will allow and what he will not. But some of your arguments seem to me to be leaving your back exposed.
deleted
Basically, if you are a legal french resident and submit your tax papers here for all worldwide income, then you are under the jurisdiction of the french tax people and their rules, they are far more important to your residency status than any UK system.
As you aren’t taxed in France on UK rental inome but just put it on the form to then get an equivalent credit it has a neutral effect on what the French authorities actually receive. Whilst of course the income must be declared as there is no tax take the exact timing is not critival.
True, you do have to declare world wide income on a French return, but if tax has been correctly deducted by the county of origin (as defined by bilateral agreement eg gov’ pensions, rental income and others) then the French allow a credit.
The problem can arise if you declare income taxed in the UK then do not enter that correctly (in the right box) on the French return then it will be taxed again in France…as happened to a friend of mine.
Declaring world wide income should not be confused with French taxation of world wide income.
A point overlooked is that whilst being fiscally resident in France and a Fench tax payer it is possible to remain liable to uk tax by virtue of certain uk income (eg gov’ and local authority pensions) and HMRC have the right to ask for an annual return (because of these pensions) and allocate a relevant code to the pension provider.
Not strictly correct, source/type of income comes into play as defined by taxation treaties.
An NHS pension along with certain central and local Gov’ and pensions are not taxable in France but by HMRC. Although they should be included on a French return you should get a French credit for these.
But the credit is calculated by France, it is the tax that would have been payable under French rules had the income been taxable in France. For the purposes of processing your declaration hey do not need to know whether or not you correctly declared it in the UK or how much you were taxed on it. Nor is it entirely to correct to say that because they do not tax this income it has a neutral effect on what they receive because it is included in your RFR, so could potentially put you into a higher tax band for your French income, in which case clearly it does have an impact on the tax you pay in France. Also of course having a lower RFR could entitle you to various benefits that you would not have been entitled to had you declared your full income.
not strictly true - see this reference which indicates that only some NHS pensions are regarded as Govt Service pensions - those payable by a Local Authority:
You make a good point and one that I did wonder about, in as much if i did a uk return in early April then i could reflect those numbers by mid May on French return. However this would mean i was including income less allowances for four months of 2023 on a 2022 French year end.
So i was advised by the guy who does my return to wait until the 2024 (for tax year 2023) French return and then use the tax numbers that i had submitted post April 2023 to HMRC.
He has been doing returns for both french residents, and also English residents who rent out french (holiday) for a long time.
The key to it all is that a person with uk rental and certain other UK income is both a French and and UK tax payer and is accountable for tax in both countries…but never pays it twice on the same income stream .
@graham …only Humphrey Appleby could devise such a list! I remember checking that OH’s pension was not paid by Capita.
ŔFR ?..and I’ve got better thing’s to do with my retiremnt than wade through tax forms for both here and in the UK so consider the cost of a professional to do it for me which is not much more than a good meal out for two extemely well spent money. 
Please do not take offence but if you do not know RFR, are you sure you are in a position to be giving tax advice to forum members?
Tell me, if you are paying a tax expert for tax advice and they have advised you what to do, why are you asking these questions here?
…and why would anyone seek important financial advice from unqualified members, however well intentioned - That’s what Tax Experts are for - unless we have a resident Tax adviser on the Forum. I don’t think telling a functionnaire at the Tresor Publique “I did it because l read it on a Forum” will get you anywhere.
You’re right of course but I don’t think that any member here has proffered tax advice - certainly not me. I (and others) have offered references for members to look at for guidance and I also provide an annual help guide which does include a very clear disclaimer which includes the words
“It is not intended as a substitute for professional advice regarding any aspect of your tax affairs or liabilities in France or beyond and does not provide specific tax advice.”
so that it’s purpose is absolutely clear.
If you’ve not seen it, the guides stated intention is to assist in the completion of the return on line in particular in regard to pension income (but not exclusively so) supported by graphics and how to access its specific aspects.
I’m sure you agree that such a guide is not providing important financial advice - and whilst at the same time acknowledging that I am not a qualified accountant, it is well intentioned and also well received in the community year on year.
I have followed this thread with interest and increasing frustration. @strudball may I politely suggest that as you seem to have made up your mind on how the french tax system works as advised by your accountant who works for the price of a good meal you should follow the advice of this old crooner.
I wish you the very best of luck with both your French and UK tax returns.
https://youtu.be/qQzdAsjWGPg
@graham gives his time to collate useful information in his guides on the French tax system. He does it freely, and you’re also free to ignore it if you want. I have found it very useful. He doesn’t, as far as I can see claim to be a tax expert, and I have in the past cross referenced his information, as I’m sure many people would, out of an abundance of caution. Rejoice that someone is happy to give their time to help.
