Hi Tony, the deposit isn't (or wasn't) a legal requirement though strongly advisable. Good notaires will suggest it as a matter of course but make sure the clause had been added for your own protection.
The french system is pretty good compared to other countries I suppose but stil not immune to abuse by all parties. I always liked the way the scottish do their house selling. I'm sure scots will correct me but apparently sealed bids from prospective buyers are given to the solicitor dealing with the sale who then opens the bids on a given day and the highest bid 'wins' the property, seems pretty fair to me!
I would be inclined to provide your own contract for them to sign, or visit the agents and insist on them changing the wording to make it clear its a percentage....it always seems so much harder to negotiate in France, in the UK I just rang the agent and we discussed a reduction in their commission...because they had assured me they would sell it in the 12 weeks they had our house to themselves...sole agency....when they didnt I said I could either remove the house from them or they agree to take a cut...they chose to take the cut. In France we have tried to negotiate, and either they wont discuss the subject or they have basically told us to bugger off!
We have just had a tranche of Mandats to sign having reduced our price - yet again! Not one of the agents quoted a percentage. I phoned one yesterday and challenged her. She was adamant that should the price be reduced again, so would their fee. She did claim to have queried this system with the agency but so far can't get them to change.
One of our agents was so keen to sell our house last time, that having dropped the price another 25k, and having reached agreement…they then said they couldnt get the last 5k and wanted another reduction…the agent said he would take the hit. All of our agents commission is written as a percentage of the sale price, so I dont think we will have a problem with regards to that.
I don't think it's been mentioned yet, and also not sure if you've ever had a loan secured by a "hypotheque", but there are two potential charges if so :
- There could be early repayment penalties on your loan if it's still outstanding, check your loan offer/ask your bank.
- If you had a loan that is either still running, recently finished, or an old loan that you refinanced, there could be some fees associated with the removal of the lien (hypotheque) on the property, called "frais de mainlevée". The cost of this is approximately 0.5% of the original loan amount. The hypotheque expires naturally 1 or 2 years (depending on when you took out the loan) after the loan end date, in which case there are no "mainlevée" fees.
Us reputable Agencies state our fees as a percentage term on the Mandat de Vente, so the fees should be reduced pro-rata with any decrease in sale price. In practice we're nearly always prepared to reduce our fees to secure a sale - just ask your agent whether buyer or seller - don't forget, if you're the vendor then asking the Agency to drop their fees may bring the overall price into the bracket for the buyer.
As noted previously, our Agency has capped the fees at 12 000 € - not sure how many others have but we feel that this is reasonable and it does give us a market advantage since properties are nearly always advertised as FAI
agree Carol -..we came down 15% on the original price but the fees are still on the original mandate...which means they have actually increased from the 5% agreed to 5.5% through us dropping our price...annoying...yes very!
There is a lot for sale though so much to pick from especially in the higher price range...
If they value your house at 100k add on the 8k then tell you the market has dropped so you drop your price to 90k - they find a buyer who negotiates and the sale price becomes 80k but then you find out the agent is still taking fees of 8k...ouch! Yes one can argue but in the case that the buyer is of course naturally torn between 2 houses that agent was selling...what do you do? One is very lucky to achieve a sale these days...it's a buyers market. So my view is if the buyer has 80k to spend who is really paying the 8k fees...? From my experience it still feels like we the seller has paid them.
ah...but then you are really keen to sell...and your house is on the market for 525k, the 25k being the agents bit...and the agent says...'it will sell better if its under 500k' so you drop the price to 499...and the agency fees come out of that...then 6 months on...the agent says 'its really a crappy market..if you really want to sell..you need to get under that 450 mark' so you go down to....anyway...we are now at 399k and of course...the fees have to come out of that....Im waiting to be told sales figures are higher for properties under 350....I might as well put a ribbon around it and a gift card on the door and give it to the next viewer who comes our way....
Good point. If you are selling your house, it makes sense to pay the fees. Though the point by Suzanne says it all too....at the end of the day it comes off the price of the house...
Well you have described my son at that time perfectly! but in fact my experiences in the UK have been much better with regard to property. This because I can look for what I want on zoopla, rightmove and primelocation, if its for sale...it will be on one of those sites if not all 3. I give my agents a list of what I am looking for...its very precise, and if something is about to come to the market that fits the bill, its sent to me by email prior to going on the market. The house we are moving into on Thursday came onto Rightmove at 7.30 on a Sunday morning...I rang the agent at 10 when they opened, we viewed at 2pm next day and the sale was agreed Tuesday morning at 10.
In France....I was never sent new properties...I had to find them myself on websites....photo's often out of focus...with a picture of an unmade bed (one photo of a bedroom clearly showed a mirrored ceiling and camera pointing at the bed!!!!)
I was taken to houses that didnt come close to my descriptions, but the agent took us as they 'had a hunch it would fit the bill' ie. they wanted shot of it. In the same way Ive had poor unsuspecting holiday makers viewing our house...because they were looking for a nice holiday cottage, but they dont want a 3000 sq ft barn with acreage and a pigonniere.
I think the awareness that agents are often only paid on commission is also a problem for many buyers. I had agents complain that they had taken us to 5 houses today and if we were not going to buy then they had wasted a day with us!
Often the agents present their 6% or whatever as 'written in stone' but when the final negotiation comes they will reduce it as they pressurise the owner to do so too!
I have both bought and sold this year, so, here goes: an agency will charge between 2 and 10%, which will be split between the buyer and the seller. The agent is in actual fact also the person who establishes the market value of your house, weeds out visitors who are just there for the ride and makes sure that everything is done according to the law (they ARE liable if anything goes seriously wrong). Sollicitors are in fact tax collectors and most of the money your buyers will be parting with will go into State coffers. You will need to come up with, and pay for, a certain number of surveys, depending on how old your house is, how up-to-date the plumbing, painting jobs, wiring and fixtures are. You can have the estate agent take care of it, as every agency has contacts. Good luck!
Totally agree with your points Ben, but some of us do strive to be much better than this! Come and see me if you want to buy in central Brittany please!
I take your point Carol - but I think it rather depends upon the rapport that you can establish with the Agent and how prepared they are to listen. Being over 50 myself, I've learnt to listen as well as talk! In the UK the majority of Agents are young whippersnappers with spots and a shiny suit - no knowledge of houses, no understanding of people and sometimes only just able to communicate in words of more than one syllabub! (and yes, I do love watching Grumpy Old Men on TV)
Some of the problems I have with estate agents (I have been buying and selling houses in France and England for many years) are:
Failure to clock that its many people's main wealth possession whereas it is just a commission for them and a quick sale at a lesser price is better than a slow one for more....
Lack of technical training. For example one agent went into a total spin about 'amiante' in the roof. A huge proportion of French houses have amiante or cannalite in the roof which poses no problem unless you purposefully drill it and breath in the dust.
It seems to be the profession of those who have no other training or skills.
Poor advice through lack of legal knowledge like capital gains(I have examples but will keep this short).
Lack of knowledge about things like reversible 'pompe à chaleur' and their dis/advantages.
Inability to 'think outside the box' - very good examples of this seen in TV programmes like 'Escape to the Country' when people buy something way outside their initial brief/specification.
Oh I will absolutely disagree with that comment! floorplans are not an option...in the UK its generally recognised that they are hugely important and all estate agents offer them now. You are wrong that you can work out where the rooms are. I have been to houses with the downstairs loo in a cupboard in the lounge. A shower off the kitchen. A sitting room only accessed via the kitchen and dining room. Bedrooms that lead from one to another (had the funniest holiday ever when I booked a 3 bed cottage for my OH and his two sisters and husbands. All the bedrooms led through eachother).
When we finally sell our pile of stones in France...we will buy a house that has a kitchen and sitting room or dining room along the back of the house on the garden...because we intend taking the back wall out and opening it all up. I wont choose a house where the kitchen isnt at the back or the sitting room as its too difficult to completely re-arrange a house.
My complaints with houses have often been that they have clearly been designed by men....(now bear in mind I am in my 50s...) when men didnt spend much time in the kitchen and didnt know there was a utility rooom.
I wont view houses in the UK without a floor plan. I got thoroughly fed up traipsing through houses in France with agents that didnt understand my wants....floor plans would have stopped that....now that is a real way of saving time. Because of where we live the agents that took us to properties were pretty much all English and most were totally unsuitable.
Trust me Ben, most people would not work the long hours that I do for the pittance I can earn some months, even at the current level of fees! What about your garage mechanic taking at least 50€ an hour for plugging your car into a computer and tweaking a few buttons, or you bank racking up monthly, quarterly and annual account charges - we all have to live and we all have to pay the overheads set by the country in which we live, with the resultant differences between here and other countries.