My children are English and I live in a rural area. My son has just passed his Bac S général, I have one daughter in lycée général (première) and my youngest is in 3ème and gets good grades. They have certainly not been directed to enseignement professional.
We are in the Herault and the Kids are in state schools, 2 boys starting their 4th year in France. Youngest in CM2 and the other in 5eme. We have been very happy with all the schools and teachers so far (except one crazy Spanish teacher) The kids liked their school in London before we came out and just as happy in the schools here. I think for the less naturally academic one he is flourishing over here. Back in the UK he was shunned into lower reading groups and had an aversion to reading. Hyper competitive kids and tiger parents in the UK can be as scary.
Our son is 10, in public CM2 in a small rural village school. Last year a new maitresse arrived who follows the Freinet teaching method, which is a method which teaches by experience rather than by robotic copying. To me she has been a breath of fresh air - very human, open, warm. She believes in encouraging the kids rather than putting them down. My son opened up a lot last year with her and we saw it as a big step forward. Following rentree this year, her 2nd, 3 families have moved their kids to other schools as they feel the maitresse is not keeping up with the curriculum and that there is not enough structure to classes and not enough homework (maitresse believes kids do enough work in school and that home is time for family, not more work)
I think a lot of it is based on one particular mum who is very very vocal, very involved in the parents/teachers board. Her son moved to College this rentree and is apparently struggling to keep up with the level of work and homework. The word on the grapevine is that the first year of college is revising over the work carried out in CM2 but he is struggling because there are gaps in his knowledge from CM2 and that he was not taught what he should have been.
We are not going to jump ship and follow the others but I am taking my son this week for a bilan at an ortophoniste and she is going to give me the details of a maths teacher so he can go for a maths bilan also. If they both say he is in line with his age group then fine but if they feel he is behind then we have some decisions to make.
Oh crumbs Veronique, that's not easy for teacher or pupils.
I have classes of 35/36 in Lycée - these are the ones who haven't yet got through to Higher Ed. My daughter in Prépa in Paris is in a class of 45.
I'm teaching at the Universite de Versailles Saint Quentin en Yvelines. At least it's in western Paris area so it could be worse. My class sizes are often near 30. My French boyfriend thinks I should just teach the ones that want to learn and let the rest sleep (if only they would, haha) but it rather goes against my nature.
One African chap has just realised he's screwed up his future by wasting his school and uni years but it's too late now he's reached my class , third year uni. He's theoretically been learning English for 8 years but cannot understand a simple sentence from me. Hearthbreaking. Sorry to hear the GE's aren't any better. I thought you went there to work seriously. English is essential in my opinion.
Actually though, there are even more because you also have the Bac Pro and Technique..
I just want to add .. I have a nineteen year old son and a fifteen year old daughter ... both born and educated in the public system here ... I totally agree with everything Nigel is saying. especially don't speak French to them in the house ... or they will never be bilingual. Primary school is not such a big deal .. but there are some horrors of teachers around .. even in maternelle.
I find Nigel's comments spot-on and quite interesting from someone who gets children at the other end of the Fr ed system after they've gone through the rigors of the Bac and prepa.
I am American married to a French man. We have been back in France for 2 yrs having lived in NY for 12 yrs where our 2 children (now in 5eme & 2nd) attended a French American school. The program followed the Fr. curriculum to the Bac but included the American program for English, Social Studies, some sciences as well as many cultural aspects (sports, proms, community service, graduations, etc). That being background for my impressions of their current program which is a French public school with an integrated private Anglophone section. There are many of them in France now and some are certainly better than others....not sure how the one in Manosque is though I knew someone whose children were there until they moved to St. Germain en Laye.
I was never a fan of the French system either and only accepted it because we had a good blend of French and American in the US and because I feared that one day we would come back here and they'd be lost if they had been in just an American system. And they would have been. But now that we are in a truly French system, I have only one wish...to get them out. The program and the system is outdated, they have very little positive feedback and even less creative approach to education. God forbid you have a child who needs extra help or who is "precoce" because the system doesn't really know how to address their issues and there is no real program to train this type of teacher in the French system. In fact, it wasn't until I returned here that I realized French teachers have almost ZERO training in how to teach!! They know their subjects but have no training in how to transmit that information or to differing learning styles. And let's not forget the teachers (hopefully not many, though I have already seen a few) who are only interested in the paycheck and cannot be fired because the heads of school can do nothing to get rid of them!
I do agree with others that your daughter is young so it probably wouldn't do much harm to keep her local for the maternelle years but if she does well I suspect you will be very tempted to keep her in the system and I would strongly caution on that. My children have adapted fairly well but only because they have a strong base received in the US and because they know they will have alternatives and that I am doing everything in my power to get them back to the US next year. Failing that, I am looking into private schools here but then we are still faced with the Bac and Orientation which begins at a very young age . I think the Orientation part of the system may be more similar to the UK but very foreign to us Americans.
This has become a bit rambling but bottom line, if you have to stay in France, I would be very cautious about staying in the French-only system not the least of which is the English language aspect which even though not perfect, is much better than regular English taught to French students. By the way, one other benefit is the positive reinforcement the native-language Anglophone section teachers typically bring which is a breath of fresh air for the kids compared to the French side...at least in our experience.
Let's make it clear from the start: the 'private' system in France is no better or worse than the 'state' school system. The teachers are more or less the same and they are all paid by the state. Some private schools (they are nominally 98% 'Catholic' ) may try and convince you that they have a more spiritual approach to schooling or that discipline is tighter: total nonsense. My wife is an atheist and works in the private system like a majority of her colleagues.
I don't know much about today's British system - my experience dates a bit but I felt at the time that those with the money to live in a 'nice' area got a much better education than the others. Has that changed?
My children have both gone (or are going) through the French system: my son is 24 and has a Masters II in European Law. His entire schooling has cost us 0 euros. He is totally bilingual (my wife is French). He says that his classes at Lycée and University were all lively with much discussion and interaction. He studied a wide range of subjects for the BAC 'L' and has what we used to call 'an education'. And, I might add, he has a severe dyspraxia problem which the French Education authorities have dealt with and taken into consideration (well, we did have to push them).
Sure, I have taught in French universities for over 20 years and it's true a lot of the students shouldn't be there. But they do get a chance and a surprising number seize the chance and finish their degrees. Where the system breaks down is afterwards as no French govt minister will ever suggest the kids should travel, take a gap year, look abroad for jobs and so on.
So, Laura, put your daughter in the local state school, let her learn French naturally and keep speaking English to her at home. She'll be fine. The 'international' schools are really only for ex-pats who are 'passing through': kids who were born and brought up in the UK for example and who want to go back later. They tend to be arrogant and impatient with 'French' bi-lingual children who have been through the French system. Avoid them if possible.
Yes, there are faults, big ones, in the French education system. There are also faults, big ones, in the British education system... I don't know any others so can't comment.
We came here when the girls were 5, 7 & 10. The 10 year old hated French school but said later she'd have hated school wherever she was. She passed her Bac, went to Fac, has worked all over Europe and is currently doing contracts for the EU. The 5 year old turned out to be dyslexic, she was sent to an orthophonist aged 7 (within a month) and was reading within 6 weeks. She's now an engineer (Bac + 5).
All three are completely bilingual, they speak English at home, French everywhere else, the eldest and youngest write English stories and novels. The French stystem may be short on imagination but it hasn't cramped theirs. Number 2 daughter is lively, bright, is working in tourism which she adores and probably wouldn't have done any better anywhere else.
And - let's actually give a thumbs up for the French sytem in some aspects, the youngest did three months work experience in a research laboratory in New Jersey as part of her degree. She and her friend were the first students from France they'd ever had and the head of the lab said they were the first work experiencers he'd ever had (and he'd had Koreans, Americans, Brits etc) who could come in and start working without being told what to do. He said he'd definitely be having more French students in future. Incidentally the daughter's friend was far from fluent in English.
Obviously we all want what's best for our children but nothing's perfect, you have to do the best you can and accept there will always be a downside somewhere. My advice is your daughter is young, doon't worry about it for the moment and send her to the nearest or most convenient school for you, that way she can make friends, the nearer the better.
But you are limited by the arrangement of the school timetable
I spend a lot of time & effort getting my pupils to realise that there isn't just one way of being right - so I do see what you mean! They are very risk-averse, when I first get my hands on them...
One of my daughters who went through the system here from A to Z is reading history at a reputable UK university, she got in on the strength of her Bac results and doesn't seem at a disadvantage when it comes to independent thought, analysis, deduction or conclusion-drawing....
I do agree with you to a certain extent though - the huge problem now is that we are attempting to educate 100% or near as dammit of a generation to a particular level, and that has never been the case before, anywhere. One size can't possibly fit all and although we are all (in Europe) expected to succeed like mad academically and get degrees at the very least, I don't see any way this can be done without goal-post shifting. As it is a BA is now small change, you need at least an MA to do what you want.
If we were a ruthless centralised state we'd pick the academic elite through a competitive exam at a particular age, cream off the top 15% and educate them to a genuinely high level. Special tiny schools for the brainy, special tiny schools for the sporty, special tiny schools for artists and musicians. Everyone else can be a manual worker, huge big schools for them but they won't need much will they. But we shouldn't do that practical & logical as it might seem because it is ethically appalling and anyway we can't because we aren't an RCS and so we try to do the best we can for all our pupils whatever their abilities.
I think a lot depends on where you are actually coming from!
If your children grow into the French school system from the Maternelle onwards, they don’t know anything else and will probably be fine, as long as they don’t have any learning disabilities as dyslexia etc.
Our daughter was 13 when we arrived from Germany and was a bright and outgoing child. Here it turned into the sheer horror! In the German school system she was encouraged to speak up and got graded for “oral participation”. Here this was counted against her. The teaching style was as different as day and night! This led to a nervous breakdown and a refusal to go to school. She never really adjusted to the French education system, although she managed to get her BAC without having to repeat a single class and even with a “mention”, but boy - at what price! We would never ever do this to her again.
And for French school kids speaking foreign languages really well… hmmm…
Certainly not in comparison to students in Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands or Scandinavia!
I don't know what the UK system is like now. I am British and only know what it was like from when I was at school, we were quiet, took notes from the teacher's lecture or from the board, learnt them and passed exams in the hope of going to university. I then went to a UK university with the same format of teaching, except that they had tutorials, where we were supposed to discuss subjects, but everyone just sat in silence and didn't answer any questions, so the lecturer just ended up talking to us.
My three children have passed through the French system without any problem (they are 18,16 and 14). I have always spoken English to them even though they answered a lot in French and my youngest has started at an international school some distance away which means she has to be a weekly boarder, but this was because she really wants to study in English. The main problem if they stay in the French system is that their written English will not be so good as they will be writing in French all the time. If you want them to be perfectly bilingual try for an international school with an anglophone section with real English speakers/bilingual kids in it, not French ones with a 'good' level of English. If I lived nearer an international school I would have sent all of them there for their English but this was not possible.
Having taught English in French primary schools and also done some stints in lycée and collège I would say that the pupils are not that passive. Some classes are nice but some, the behaviour is so appalling that I have said, as have so many English speaking people I know who have tried it, 'never again'.
Well while there isn't post-bac merit-based selection for uni entry in France levels are bound to be less high since the best-on-paper students are creamed off by the Grandes Ecoles. That's a problem that needs to be addressed but not by getting rid of the Grandes Ecoles. Very good students who choose University rather than a Grande Ecole are brave - and will still come out of it well. I very much hope you aren't saying that all universities in (eg) the UK are equal in terms of teaching and student achievement? Because they most certainly AREN'T.
Remember you do an average of 12 subjects for the Bac ;-) It is more easily comparable to the Scottish system really, specialise as late as possible. And I'd say that some A levels are spurious nonsense and about as useful as Monopoly money. Just look at entrance requirements for UK universities.
I find myself teaching English at a French University. It's a revelation, and not so positive. It's incredibly primitive and designed for doctoral and Masters students (french to be the teachers, not anglophones). I have a blackboard and chalk for most of my classes. I cannot use the internet, No interactive sites, there is no modern equipment. I lug my heavy laptop, cables and videoprojector everywhere for hours a day but often it's not possible to view videos because there are no curtains.
The students aren't interested in learning, in general. My law students are the best behaved and most interested. The problem is that every man and his dog is at uni. Most of them shouldn't be there, they should be in vocational courses. The BAC has been dumbed down. They have not interest in participating, they have no ideas, little general knowledge of the world and the standard of English is poor. Well, uni is free so there's no sorting out.
One of my very non-academic sports students paid me a compliment to say I am a very good teacher. Yes, under normal technological conditions I can deliver stimulating lessons. If students are interested in their studies I can engage them but most don't know what to do with themselves so they go to free uni. I abhor the Grand Ecoles system - one is loeft with the degs. Sop I do what I can spending many hours every night and weekend trying to create a lesson that might help but when you ask them to discuss something they have nothing to say and the lesson coulod be over in 5 minutes, not 3 hours. They don't appreciate the opportunities they have because they don't have to struggle for it- it's free. I wouldn't like to see the fee structure like that in other countries including NZ where my daughter can't attend uni as it's too expensive. But doubling the fees might see unis with resources of the 21st century. The admin is hopeless. Teachers from the US can't get visas to start the semester because uni admin leave them sitting on desks over the summers hols. I could dgo on. I'm grateful to have my teaching job but it damned hard work as elsewhere if you come from another system and don't have the 'fonctionnaire' mentality. Please don't worry about the bilingualism. If you speak English at homne they'll pick it up better than at school. Buy a book online to help them. You couldn't do worse than the pedagogically untrained profs d'ecoles. School is for picking up French. You'll have to pick up the slack at an international school.
What Natasha says is really sensible and constructive as her children are closer to your daughter age-wise. I think you are possibly worrying a bit too much, too soon... What are your ambitions for your daughter? What direct personal experience do you have of the French system? Why wouldn't you want your daughter to go to a private school? There is a lot of variation within the relatively narrow parameters of the programme! All children are different and what suits some may not suit others. There are good, solid but not necessarily exciting teachers and some inspiring ones and there are some awful ones.
I think your daughter is still very young, she isn't even obliged to go to school AT ALL until the September of the calendar year she turns six... that said maternelle is unlikely to be unpleasant or have a negative impact on her and she will have local friends to play with in the holidays and with whom to go to activities if she goes to a local maternelle.
Go and see a few schools and see where you think she would be happiest now - it isn't necessarily going to be the school she would be happiest in at 10 or at 15 - you can always change at the appropriate time. You aren't signing up a person at 2 for the next 16 years!
You have plenty of time to see what happens in secondary school.
The other alternative you have is not sending her to school at all (instruction is compulsory, school isn't) but home-schooling is very unusual here and there isn't a great deal of support for it. It also presupposes an enormous amount of work for you if she is to integrate an educational system somewhere, sometime.
You need to make sure she is read to and then reads independently in both languages, writes in both languages when she starts writing and has exposure to more than simply utilitarian use of language - this seems to be what differentiates truly bilingual children from those who should be but aren't.
I see many binational children in school who are perfectly bilingual - and many who aren't anywhere near being bilingual. I also have 5 perfectly bilingual children of my own who are going through the system and grew up PB myself as I'm 1/2 French and 1/2 Scottish.
That said intelligence varies just as sporting potential does and some people are not 'academic' (good at abstract thinking) and can be inarticulate in their native language even when they have only one, for a variety of reasons. Other people can be very articulate and perfectly bilingual and not interested in abstract reasoning, they may prefer artistic or practical pursuits. If you work on the principle that your daughter is a normal bright little girl with lots of potential for all sorts of things, encourage her to use both languages at home and give her all the cultural references in the 'other' language that only you can, she should be fine.
My (entirely personal) opinion is that if we don't give our children the tools they need to achieve as much as they possibly can, then we are short-changing them. While they are still in compulsory education that probably means being elitist and I DON'T mean in the sense of denigrating those who achieve 'less' I mean everyone doing as well as they possibly can within a particular system.
What is so wrong with the Bac (there are many different types)? What is wrong with élitism based on attainment rather than income? (though income often has a direct impact on attainment, obviously; what really seems to make the difference in outcome is people allowing themselves to be realistically ambitious).
(btw I have taught in GB in both State secondary 11-18 schools and Public Schools and am now teaching in France, formerly in collège but now in Lycée)