I am in Franche Comte but some distance from you, in the Jura near Champagnole. I am a semi-retired architect, and have in the past installed wood-burning fires and stoves myself, in the UK. The regulations and insurance consequences have now changed in the UK so that recently I have paid professionals to do this, so that they can provide HETAS Certificates of Compliance (Building Regulation Compliance Certificates). I think there are two good reasons for that: if/when I sell I can demonstrate full building regulation compliance when a solicitor conducts a search, which might otherwise jeopardise the sale; if there is a fire or even carbon monoxide issues with tenants or guests, I then have proof against 3rd Party claims and can be reasonably sure that insurers will pay out.
Some years ago we bought a 12 KW Godin Stove for our house here. We went to the local Godin agents and obtained a Devis (detailed quotation). The Stove itself cost about 25% of the final bill for flue and installation. Our electrician (also the local volunteer fire chief) was annoyed because we did not ask him, or use his services. (Many electricians will be just as happy plumbing or installing stoves in our experience since!). He came in to do some work, and realised the people employed by the agents did not observe the regs. Rather than telling us he took an axe to the ceiling, causing a fair amount of damage, to clear a sufficient distance between the stainless steel flue and the nearby floor timbers. He then left us an unapologetic note telling us what he had done in the interests of preserving our lives! I then had to spend more time and money putting right the damage while observing the French Regs. We are still very pleased with the Godin, and it is still working well, almost 18 years later, even when its -20 deg c outside.
I would now ensure that I checked the qualifications of the artisan doing the installation and not just the sales agency selling the Stove! There are a wide range of skills and knowledge in French artisans in my experience, so I would also ask neighbours for recommendations, and ask for recent commendations from clients. There are helpful sites - eg https://www.faire.fr/trouvez-un-professionnel āJe recherche un professionnel RGEā but I would still undertake those checks as well. RGE qualification appears to be the closest equivalent to the UK HETAS scheme. There is a qualification that I would expect a wood-burner installer to have now in France, āQualiBoisā - https://www.qualit-enr.org/particuliers/informer-qualif/decouvrez-qualibois. Although I would still check for real customer recommendations, and even visit them to find out if there are any issues, I think at least this scheme involves annual audits and satisfied customers, as well as some evidence of skills in the individual staff.
In more detail.
There are regulations in France about installing wood-burning stoves. They include distance away from timber beams and other potentially combustible materials etc, air supply to the stove, and the stove manufacture itself (kitemark Flamme verte) . (The kitemark demonstrates the minimum efficiency of the stove, some cheaper ones may not comply!).
If itās an existing chimney with a new wood-burning stove- the chimney must have a liner to comply. The liner or double walled flue if new, must comply with French regulations (some british supplied ones are fine in the UK but not in France). There are recommendations, for best draw and operation, that the size of flue is 25% larger than the collar on the stove, eg if a 150mm collar, then a 200mm flue. British standards generally are aligned with French Standards (via the International Standards Organisation [ISO], so reading the UK standards gives a good start. E.g. https://www.hetas.co.uk/wp-content/mediauploads/BFCMA-General-Guidance-10-12-12.pdf However bear in mind that international standards are subject to similar interpretation in France as in the UK. So do check with a professional by getting one or more Devis (detailed written quotations ā see https://www.service-public.fr/professionnels-entreprises/vosdroits/F31144 for the Devis requirements ā¦ right-click the page in Google Chrome to translate to Englishā¦ 3rd option from the bottom of the pop up menu.)
You require a dedicated air supply pipe or duct from exterior to alongside the stove. The size of the supply depends on the size of the stove.
You can potentially save some VAT (almost 15%) by using a qualified firm (RGE) to supply and install.
You will need a qualified professional chimney sweep to regularly sweep and to certify the operation of the installation. The frequency appears to vary in different regions and communes, but the maximum period appears to be 3 years, unless your insurers or the commune require otherwise.
If you do not do this, you may well find that your insurers will not cover you in the event of a claim.
I totally agree Les, but if the wood burner is installed in a fireplace, it is vital that the chimney breast is capped off at the bottom of the chimney breast above the stove with a register plate that encloses in the entire chimney. Then if at all possible and affordable that the entire chimney is then back filled with vermiculite to insulate it around the exhaust chimney from the stove. I had this done in the UK and my little 5kw duel fuel stove in the UK heats the entire house as no heat escapes up the chimney. My neighbour had exactly the same fire fitted in his house after seeing mine but didnāt go to the expense of the register plate and vermiculite and all his heat goes straight up the chimney and his fire is rarely effective.
So my advice is donāt go to the expense of a wood burner unless you are going to do it properly and ensure you get the maximum heat output from it. Through exposing the flue as you suggested or blocking in and insulating the chimney if itās in a fire place.
I was fortunate in that I was able to specify provision for the stove into a new-build house, so I didnāt have to work within an existing fireplace.
I am puzzled how, by putting insulation between the chimney flue and the remainder if the building, you can be warming the remainder of the building? I would have thought it would have the opposite effect, and increase the temperature of the exhaust gases going
outside - or am I being obtuse?
I was persuaded to use a flue wrap for the stainless liner we put into our chimney because it was argued that it would keep the gases hotter all the way up the flue, and so improve the draw. I suspect that if you use a fireplace or woodburner every day in an old masonry chimney then after the first couple of days the chimney retains enough warmth to not need the wrap, and you would gain perhaps a bit more heat from the chimney all the way up. If however there is part of the chimney rising through an uninsulated attic, it might be sensible to insulate the liner from that point up anyway.
I am trying to understand how insulating the flue can improve the woodburner efficiency. I thought the efficiency was down to the design of the appliance in how completely it turns fuel to heat. The better it does this the lower the emmisions too. I can see how it would improve updraught - the flue would heat up more quickly. If the flue is insulated then surely the hot exhaust gases would have less opportunity to help warm the house .
Makes complete sense to me. Our wood burner is in a fireplace with a baffle plate to restrict heat loss up the chimney although some heat obviously goes up the flue too. The flue passes through the bedroom above and heats it markedly: there is a fireplace in the bedroom directly above the one below, and its chimney breast warms up when the poĆŖle in the room below is alight.
I donāt think the flue that was fitted when the wood-burner was installed extends as far as the pot on the roof either. It wasnāt long enough, by my observation. The installation was done by a registered fitter.
Additionally, it seems the chimney stack is shared by our neighbour whose house abuts ours, both are well over 100 years.
old. His fireplace is back-to-back with ours separated by a shared thick granite wall.
He always knows when our fire is lit as a whiff of woodsmoke enters his sitting room, and he never lights a fire in his. The chimneys seem to splice in the roof spaces. If vermiculite was poured down the chimney from the top it would fill his house and drown him in it.
Hi John, old thread but can I ask if you could point me to some info about this dedicated air supply pipe from outside? Iām planning on installing log burner but am not sure how this pipe should be incorporated.
Thanks for the detailed info. I am nearby in Ain and finding it really hard to find a good installer.
We have had installed a Burley Brampton stove (bought in France) which is absolutely fantastic (see YouTube or their website).
We also went for the option of having the incoming air pipe so that the fire has an air supply directly into the stove - this eliminates the stove sucking in air from the room which then eliminates further cold air being sucked into the room from outside.
These are incredibly efficient and burn very little wood compared to our relatively new Godin we had before.
Hi
I donāt have any details for local French suppliers. I am aware that M Blondeau in Nozeroy is a nit picking perfectionist, and the ex voluntary fire chief. You could get a Devis from him for guidance. (We used him for early work on our house, not the stove, and have since used other artisans who we think were less dogmatic.)
We installed a Godin 12kw Cheminee āfreestandingā stove with glazed door and a double insulated stainless flue, about 2002, and used a local supplier to install. In practice our old house here in the Jura has proved drafty enough not to need a dedicated fresh air supply.
In traditional open inglenook fireplaces in the UK I and others used to design a pit either under the fire or just in front, then place a thick stone paving slab on a supportive rim over the pit. That rim had regular slots for air passage all round the open fire or just along the front of the hearth. Visually you would see a thin open slot about the size of a normal joint, but given the overall length it adds up to an effective opening, an air opening size that could be calculated. (UK regs at the time required conversion work not to make the situation worse than it was before the change was made, not to upgrade to meet as new building regs as is the case now.)
The slab could be levered up to clear out any ash deposits although that might be once a decade or less. Then we would run 100mm drain pipe (clay, or if plastic then cased in concrete) to a louvred air inlet (insect proofed) in the nearest external wall, above damp proof course level (150mm min above external ground level). This was common practice at the time to avoid smoky rooms as people put in central heating and draught sealed, but also wanted the joys of an open wood fire in their old inglenook.
Best wishes John
ps
I can endorse the value and efficiency of Burley Stoves too. We installed a 4Kw Burley Debdale about 4 years ago in our house in the UK. (4KW is the maximum size in the UK regs that does not require an external fresh air supply). If for installation in France I would go a size or two larger with a dedicated fresh air supply, since its a bit of a pain sourcing wood for the smaller stove, and it requires feeding regularly because of its smaller size (we insulated the flue pipe up inside the original 1900 chimney). Other than that, we remain very pleased with it, and think its design and appearance is simple and understated, unlike some over flamboyant designs on the market!
Hi all, we just had a lovely la nordica 8.3 kw installed. Finally found a local independent. Sterling work, brought his kids with him to meet the cats without hair and the dogs sized like horses, came on a friday night after working on a big building site job all week and did not leave until he was happy. Very good price and really clean and competent installation. Can only reccomend. Weāre in 22 Dinan area.
Hi,
Very late into this post. I have been to three of these shops that sell woodburners. All three took one look at my chimney and gave the Gallic Shrug. My house is nearly five hundred years old and the chimney is one metre seventy wide, reducing to one metre fifty. But it is so slim. Probably not much more than 15cms. I had not realised that the smaller flue bore the better for a wood burner. Quite the contrary to the extractor in the kitchen where the bigger the better. I had thought of doing the installation myself using an uninsulated inox flue liner and then back filling with vermiculite. I am not sure there is enough vermiculite in France to back fill that huge volume. Then I read about regulations in France for the installation of wood burners and the effect on oneās insurance if your house catches fire. Also, upon a sale, it is essential that the installer is actually qualified.
So I then tried the strangely named company, AƤsgard. Incredibly expensive but very professional. They are prepared to undertake the work but I wondered if any of your readers have experience of them, please?
My son had a very limited area in which to put a freestanding stove in, went to Aasgard and like you, found them extremely expensive and not that interested in a small project. He went to Jotul after and they were very good, came to the house and did a technical visit with a devis a few days later which was a lot cheaper than the other one and then the stove they chose was installed and the salesman came out and gave them a lesson in how to use it correctly and what to burn etc. They are extremely happy and very pleased and this is their third winter using the stove nearly every day the tramontine blows. They use compacted wood logs bought from a supplier and get an invoice but unfortunately could not qualify for the government help as their income is over the plafond. Their stove also goes straight up and through the house roof with a tube going out underneath the house to take any other fumes as they have a half metre space underneath.
Thank you for your quick response. I have renovated properties in England, Portugal, Italy, France and Moscow. Russia was the easiest (ten years ago) and France the most difficult. But I love living here and consider all the niggles as only temporary.
Vero, my DIL had to stop work due to gestational diabetes 1 and being 7months pregnant in mid Jan and because it turned cold needed to keep the stove burning and also for the 2year old to be warm so their income has actually decreased, but there you have it as they both work hard, pay their taxes and have never claimed anything so far and their joint income is only just over the plafond for help too.
Iām not criticising them! Itās just that if your income is over the limit you are better off than people who are under it, they are fortunate to be above that limit even if it must be galling to miss out by not much.
Hi. We have recently constructed a substantial extension. Our Godin woodburner lacked the output to heat the new area as well. We visited almost all the major suppliers of woodburners in our area, as far as Pontarlier and Bourg-en-Bresse. We were impressed by Jotul. We were informed that there were massive supply chain delays however, particularly due to the rising cost of other fuels and also a big German switch to woodburners for similar reasons. We wanted the convenience of pellets, but were conscious of the rising cost of pellets as well. I seriously investigated putting in both a cheaper pellet stove and another woodburner. However in our situation that would have cost us a lot for two separate specialised flues (we do not have a suitable external wall for a through the wall pellet burner flue).
We therefore decided in the end to go with a single āhybridā stove that could take either logs or pellets. The cheaper Invicta range require you to manually change over from one fuel to the other. We decided that we would pay extra for one that changes automatically back to pellets when the wood burns out. This left us with a choice between Dielle [hybrid 80] and Rika [Paro or Induo]. (Other comparable hybrid stoves exist but were not available in our area when we were searching.) The thing that swayed us was the availability before Christmas of the Rika compared to the uncertain delivery times of the Dielle. We have therefore been running the Rika Paro for a couple of months so far. It is complex but the touchscreen controls are excellent. It burns a single 30cm log for about an hour at around 600 deg C. That is what we wanted, and the visible combustion of the wood through the glass pane is attractive. It has been -6 deg C the last few nights, and on pellets alone all day and night it has consumed about 30kg of pellets every 24 hours, which is substantially more than we had expected. It is however very quiet on pellets, while the Dielle has a reputation for being noisy. The automatic changeover from wood to pellets has worked consistently well. It is easy to start on pellets, then change to wood without the need for firelighters etc. Rika also have a reputation for sorting out customer problems, and there is a big community of users on social media. Dielle does not seem to have the same reputation or independent presence.
The other thing that was not fully clear about the Rika Paro is that if burning wood all day, it needs the ashtray emptied and a hoover clear up after about 2 days, on pellets only the ashtray gets close to full after a week.
In our price comparisons, installed with flue and TTC, the Rika Paro cost about 13000 euros; the Dielle Hybrid 80 about 11500 euros. We compared that with the Jotul F520HT [woodburner only, but which comes with a heatstore to give a longer period of heat output], and that would have cost us about 9500 euros.
but I see what you mean.
even if it must be galling to miss out by not much.