If they can’t get the government proposal through the House as it is a no goer, it does not make sense to include it in a second Referendum.
We already know how easily confused are the electorate.
It comes to something Stella when Guy Verhofstadt says the UK ex pats are getting the worst deal.
When the things I came to France are being threatened, freedom of movement and living as a true European I cannot just say, ok I’ll let someone else do it all for me.
True, but if the electorate hasn’t got its ducks in a row after two years of wall-to-wall debate and commentary, it never will.
Catherine,
That is a very harsh conception of someone that actually bothered to vote albeit to leave. No-one that I know who voted to leave fits any of your misguided view. It sums up just what those that want to remain think of someone that does not agree with them. Not very charitable or polite in my opinion. Before anyone accuses me of voting leave, I have been here for more than 15 years so no longer eligible to vote although I had voted by proxy in all previous years since leaving the UK.
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I am genuinely interested in why people voted leave and the most intelligent person I spoke to who was a leave voter said that they thought the EU had too much control and hence power. This in itself proves that they do not understand what they are voting for. The UK is still and always was an independent government.
The EU runs on consensus amongst nations and other than Brussels perhaps being slightly wasteful with money, Neil Kinnochs family definitely on the gravy train imo, then we have equal say on everything.
And if all these intelligent voters think it’s a good idea to leave then please someone explain to me why Nigel Lawson wants to strengthen his position in France and why Rees Mogg has moved his hq to Dublin.
I think Catherine is spot on and there is a lot of regret amongst leave voters and the others don’t care what happens to the UK as long as they can stop ‘foreigners ‘ coming in.
I don’t feel smug, I feel ashamed that 17 million British people are prepared to ruin a country based mainly on nationalism.
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For goodness sake!!!
Perhaps those who are jumping up and down accusing me of slagging off the 17 million should re-read my post.
It was actually questioning how many of those are liable to take to the streets and man the barricades.
And yeah, it was tongue in cheek.
Personally, I have yet to meet anyone who voted leave whose arguments are coherent. I dare say they exist and I am certainly not in the habit of denying their existence.
Ditto those of you who have commented re Mike Archer. I suggest you re-read the conversation between both he and I and James’s subsequent comments; suspension was mentioned because he was being antagonistic to another member NOT me.
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It’s not good.
As a Leave voter ducks to avoid missiles I’m well used to insults. Occasional bit of to-ing and fro-ing on this forum but all fairly well behaved. However, Facebook groups are a minefield. I’ve always presented my Leave argument fairly politely, I thought, but received a few private messages with threats, saying someone would punch me, etc. Well I’m not likely to meet these individuals and I doubt they’d say it to my face so I wasn’t worried.
But what mightily p*ssed me off was some Remainers - not all, but some - saying that it’s the unintelligent who voted Leave, and that the majority of university grads voted Remain. Now some of that is a modern thing - few of my generation went to university but pretty much all the generation after mine did (fat lot of good, plenty of McDonald’s serving staff amongst them now) and we know that the younger generation were more pro-Remain so I don’t take that on board. But insult is to do with lack of intelligence. Now education is entirely different from intelligence. It’s good to have both. But book-learning doesn’t always lead to intelligent thinking so university=cleverer isn’t an equation I go with.
If I had my vote again, I’d still vote Leave. Albeit with more information at my fingertips and more sympathy for the Remain argument, but I’m still convinced Leave is the way to go. I don’t know any of my Leave friends (both in France or the UK) who have changed their minds. But I do know plenty of Remain voters who are now more inclined to vote Leave, if they had a chance again. I don’t know why, I’ve gone past having that discussion. I ignore polls that predict results … so often they are wrong. But, in my personal knowledge, there’s more Remainers moving over to the Leave side (mostly southern UK based people).
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Bizarre…
Why would anyone who benefits from the European project vote to leave? 
If you want an indication of the variant in intelligence and educational levels between the average leaver and the average remainer just log onto any BBC ‘have your say’ chat and take a look.
Just saying.
The biggest survey undertaken since the referendum contradicts your thoughts on the swing from Leave to Remain.
As always take surveys with a pinch of salt but they offer the best indication of trends.
I recall that the pre-Referendum polls inclined to Remain. That’s why I have no confidence in polls. Neither I, nor anyone I know in the world, has ever been asked for our views in a political poll. So, like you say, pinch of salt. Nothing is certain till all the votes have been counted …
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Lets see if it will fly with the Cabinet and Parliament
I wonder how much fudge is involved.
A whole mountain of it!
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Not enough for even the sweetest tooth methinks…
Whatever the details it’s going to look nothing like many leave voters thought that they were voting for. For the near future there will be strong ties to the EU and now no say in how it’s run. Just how many new immigrants will be allowed to enter the British Isles will depend on how much India and other countries flex their muscles during the next 10-20 years. Happy days. 
So much for the Will of the People - I agree.
Boris was quick to denounce it as was JRM though I think few have seen the text yet.
Have faith, last time a British leader came back from Europe with a deal it all worked out pretty well!
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It must be really disheartening to be on the negotiating team to have come up with a deal, presumably endorsed by May at least to find everyone else and the dog jumping in and denouncing it as rubbish even before the ink as dried and they have read the thing.
Davies: “Cabinet and all Conservative MPs should stand up, be counted and say no to this capitulation.”
Sadiq Khan: “bad deal for Britain which risks damaging jobs and growth for the next generation”
Corbyn: “unlikely to be good deal for the country”
Johnson: “It is utterly unacceptable to anybody who believes in democracy”
JRM: “middle muddle fiddle fuddle”
But I suppose that actually reading the document before commenting is not the done thing these days.
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