I just came across this on https://brexit.gouv.fr/sites/brexit/accueil.htm
“Les personnes déjà titulaires d’une carte de séjour permanent ayant été délivrée en leur ancienne qualité de citoyen de l’UE bénéficieront de plein droit de l’échange de ce document contre une carte de séjour permanent « accord de retrait ».”
Google translate gives this.
"Persons already holding a permanent residence card that has been issued in their former capacity as EU citizens will automatically benefit from the exchange of this document for a permanent withdrawal card “withdrawal agreement”. "
It could have been more specific if it had used the phrase, "… holding a permanent residence card that had been issued in their former capacity as a citizen elsewhere in the EU " [My italics.] I have read it as such.
If this is the case it has answered a question I have put to this forum and others but without reply, "Does residency elsewhere in the EU count towards or have any bearing on obtaining residency in FR? "
If anyone can confirm or refute my reading of this I would be most grateful.
I think you are reading what you want to read. As I read it the French government is saying that any British passport holder who has been issued a CdS(UE) as they have met the residency requirements in France will be able to exchange it for the new Brexit card. I can’t see that they would consider residency permits from residents of other EU countries. Those people have not met the basic conditions for residency in France.
Nope … French have been issuing Brits with CdS under their right of being EU/UE members… for years… and will now simply transfer those CdS to new ones under this new situation in which we all find ourselves…
Fair enough, David. However, I read on the RIFT site, amongst the submissions to the survey run by RIFT, a correspondent was puzzled, not to say a bit miffed, when a UK friend who had been resident in Sweden received a 10 year resident card, straight off the bat, while he, resident <5 years in FR, got a 12 month one.
So, although I think your reading of the quoted statement is correct, there may yet be some sort of inter-EU mechanism at work
When different prefectures issued CdS there were often inconsistencies. It’s not surprising that someone who had been resident in France for less than five years was only offered a card for one year as a basic requirement for a 10 year permanent card is five years residency.
I doubt that there will be any inter EU mechanism as the system is based on allowing British citizens already resident in a European country to maintain their right# to residency. The whole mess has been going on for so long now there is no excuse for anyone not to be established where they want to be well before the end of the year.
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Your final sentence is correct only for those already with their feet officially under the FR table. Other circumstances come into play.
I am resident in Spain. I want to move to FR. I have a property here that I must sell in order to rehouse myself in FR and, if it will make any difference, provide a fair wad of ‘change’.
The timing of the pox has been a real setback. Lockdown here kicked in 2 weeks after my flat went on sale. It’s just been reactivated, yesterday.
Not just the timing has had a 3+ month hole blown in it but the property mkt has been affected: nobody knows to what extent.
I have to bear in mind that getting residency confirmed in FR in good time is essential because I will obviously have to give up residency in SP. To give up one to find the other is unobtainable for some reason would be disastrous.
And, although your second sentence is correct, it does not address the point made by the correspondent - that his non-res pal from Sweden got a 10 yr card instantly.
I also posted in another thread where you raised the same question, and have just added the link below to my previous answer:
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1375
That link says what you can / can’t do as a 3rd nation state national holding a permanent EU resident card from another EU country.
Note that the EU permanent resident card is not transferable per se, it merely allows you to elect residence in France, but you still have to apply for one or the other of the prescribed types of residency cards within 3 months.
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For the sake of completeness, see also :
https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F1453
Timing will be everything, I fear.
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It’s not a case of my statement being incorrect it is simply a fact. British citizens resident in France before the end of the year will be treated quite differently to those who arrive later. Residency does not actually mean it’s where your property is located. If I was in your position I would move myself to a rented address in France ASAP to establish the basic residency requirements in plenty of time. British nationals are being offered residency in the country they reside, it could be in any of the 27 EU countries. It is not an out of Britain one size fits all measure.
Andrew … Of course! Times is 'ard … the clock is ticking. A bloke will rock up today to add a ‘virtual video visit’ to the listing for my flat. I am ventre terre á terre but, as the Sp tourist ads say ‘Spain Is Different’.
Tho’ note - I never said I thought the statement meant a straight swap of SP res to FR res, which some respondents seem to have understood. I wrote "Does residency elsewhere in the EU count towards or have any bearing on obtaining residency in FR? “” My italics. And, judging by the tale of the incomer from Sweden, it still might. Maybe that person simply got the right official on the right day in the right office.
And, although the procedures seem now to be pretty clear, David’s statement “there is no excuse for anyone not to be established where they want to be well before the end of the year.” does not apply to ‘everyone’. Only those already in FR.
David’s advice about moving to a rented address is indeed Plan B. Anyone going in the opposite direction like the idea of living in the city centre of lovely Valencia? Other flats in my building are +/- €750 pm
All in all, I do understand the procedures as completely as is reasonable for someone in my position and perhaps the links provided by Alex Thurgood will clear up any lingering doubt.
I still stand by my statement. Brexit has gone on for so long that anyone who needed to ensure that they are resident in France, even if that means renting while their overseas properties are sold, has had plenty of time to arrange it. You may have to go to your Plan B but that will be because you understand what you will need to do before the door starts to close.
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As time goes on an processes are centralised there will be fewer examples of variations in the rules. So really do not bank on that. Without knowing exactly what the person from Sweden had by way of papers it is impossible to assume.
Do you have a permanent Spanish CdS (or equivalent) anyway? If so then you will have that to fall back on.
Personally I’m with others. If you really want to live in France then take out a rental contract on somewhere to live well before December, organise some health insurance, open up a French bank account and away you go.
This useful document is hot off the press.
Christopher might like some of the aspects of the Commission Notice particularly at page 5 1.1.3.1 where it says:
The exercise of the right of residence means that an EU citizen or a UK national lawfully resides in the host State in accordance with Union free movement law before the end of the transition period.All possible situations where the right of residence stems from Union free movement rules are covered.This includes right of residence, irrespective of whether it is a permanent right of residence, irrespective of its duration (e.g. an arrival in the host State one week before the end of the transition period and residing there as a job-seeker under Article 45 TFEU is sufficient) and irrespective of the capacity in which these rights are exercised (as a worker, self-employed person, student, job-seekers, etc.).It is sufficient that the right of residence was exercised in accordance with the conditions Union law attaches to the right of residence (case C-162/09Lassal or joined cases C-424 and 425/10Ziolkowski andSzeja).Possession of a residence document is not a prerequisite for lawful residence in accordance with Union law because under Union law the right of residence is conferred directly on EU citizens by the Treaty and is not dependent upon their having fulfilled administrative procedures (Recital 11 of Directive 2004/38/EC). On the other hand, the possession of a residence document issued under Union law does not, in itself, make the residence to be in accordance with Union law (case C-325/09Dias).1.1.3.2"Before the end of the transition period and continue to reside there thereafter"These notions, that should be read together, incorporate a time stamp that requires that residence in accordance with Union law qualifies for the purposes of Part Two of the Agreement only when such residence is ‘continuous’ at the end of the transition period (31 December 2020).Rules on continuity of residence are further covered in Article 11 of the Agreement.Historical periods of residence that have lapsed before the end of the transition period (for example, residence between 1980 and 2001) or periods of residence that commence only after the end of the transition period do not qualify.1.1.4Article 9(d): State of workThe State of work is only relevant for the purposes of identifying the territorial scope of the rights of frontier workers. Persons who reside in the State in which they work are not considered as frontier workers.1.1.5Article 9(e): Rights of custodyThe expression “Rights of custody” is defined by reference to Article 2(9) of Council Regulation (EC) No 2201/2003 concerning jurisdictionand the recognition and enforcement of judgments in matrimonial matters and the matters of parental responsibility (the Brussels IIa Regulation).This provision covers rights of custody acquired by judgment, by operation of law or by an agreement having legal effect.
Throughout the document, it does make strong reference to “lawful residence in the Host State” but makes no mention of acquring lawful residence in a State other than the Host State.
Interesting stuff indeed… Thanks @anon57427786 for finding it.
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I do have pukka SP residency. And I would actually prefer if the procedures are standardized in the new central online application centre. I’d rather know exactly where I stood.
When I applied for my SP res I togged up in smarts - Pierre Cardin jkt, immaculate shirt n tie. Made a huge contrast to the rest of the applicants - Rumania, Colombia etc - so the guy just bashed out the card. Never looked at a single paper except the one that showed I am a UK pensioner. I told my gestora it would make a diff…
But I don’t expect that in FR.
I am lining up ’ hébergement’ with a pal. Simple piece of paper that certifies “I, Fred Bloggs, am putting up the herein noted Joe Soap at the address as above.”
I may then succeed in opening a FR bank acct. So far it’s been ‘Catch-a 22’. No address, no account. No account, no can rent’
Then I discovered ‘hébergement’.
Thanks Graham and others. I am aware that, at bottom, I can exercise the right of F.o.M., get my feet under the table < 31/12/2020 with a bank account and whatever else it takes to affirm “I’m here and I’m staying”.
I have adjusted my financial affairs to show a small surplus to the current published income requirements for a single pensioner… as long as the FX rate doesn’t bomb. When/If my SP flat sells, the proceeds should remove all doubt.
That’s the idea, anyway.
If wearing fancy dress and proving that you are a UK OAP is all it takes in Spain you’d better start reading up on what’s required in France. It isn’t difficult but you do actually have to prove that you are resident here, meet specific financial thresholds and have medical health cover. France has actually streamlined the system and the online portal for applications will be open very soon. It will however be necessary to tick all of the boxes to be successful.
I would have thought that
A) you would have recognised the intention of drollery re schmatta - the guy could have gone through my papers with a fine tooth comb. I was well prepared to ‘tick the boxes’.
B) The rest of what I wrote and my later commeno indicates I am perfectly well aware of the procedures required in France.
I’m grateful for the comments by Graham Lee’s, JJ and your own provision of a link.
I don’t find the somewhat finger-wagging tone helpful.
If you actually look at the times I was writing my post before yours was posted so I apologise for any duplication.
No finger wagging just advice from someone who has gone through the system to someone who described a completely different scenario in Spain.
I’m sorry that you didn’t find my previous advice helpful.
