Road deaths

General Discussion
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I have a passing interest in both cars and motorcycles. From time to time, I get a hankering to own a classic car (I had a 30+ year old Renault R4F6 at one stage in the past), as well as an itch for a motorbike, either something from the 70’s or even a new one.
The idea of having a small motorbike for excursions in France has been rattling around in my head for some time.

This evening I watched several car- and motorcycle-related videos on Youtube, and my thoughts wandered to the subject of road safety. I wondered if, as France is a less densely populated country than the UK, would the roads be safer than in the more densely populated UK? How would another country, say Ireland which is even less densely populated than France, fare?
So with the help of Google, I did some searching.

The results are interesting:
UK (287 persons/Km2) (422,000Km of roads) has 25 road fatalities per million persons;
France (122persons/Km2) (1,100,000Km of roads) has 45 road fatalities per million persons;
Ireland (77 persons/Km2) (102,000Km of roads) has 27 road fatalities per million persons.

The most dangerous European roads (in terms of fatalities per million persons) are in Romania (93), Bulgaria (81), Latvia (78) and Croatia (72).
The safest roads are to be found in Malta (17), Sweden (18), Denmark (23) and the good old UK.

The figures would imply that UK roads have 4 times the traffic density compared to French roads - more than 2x the population density and less than half the road network - and yet the UK roads are safer.*

Thoughts of pootling along the rural roads of France on a Honda have receded somewhat . . . . . .

Any thoughts? Experiences?

*Note: The above is just based on a cursory look at the figures, and not definitive. I haven’t tried to differentiate between rural and urban statistics or to compare road types etc. etc. etc.

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Population density is around a quarter of the average here in the lot. Probably somewhat lower here south of Cahors. I’m looking forward to buying a motorbike again despite seeing more risky manoevres than I was used to in the UK. This website shows among other things information on accidents - persons killed or injured plus vehicle type, , age etc. Road traffic accidents and radars map | French road safety observatory

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Sadly this really brings it home.

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All I would say is beware the deep ditches on sides of rural roads in France! Can be a Hobson’s choice.

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Higher density of cars = lower speed. Haven’t seen it so much in Normandy, but in the Creuse there didn’t seem to be much understanding of the physics of driving (or basic common sense), like if you go round a corner too quickly you’re going to have an accident .

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As a Honda Pootler (both in car and motorbike form) I have the following thoughts. :slight_smile:

As @Mark mentioned, the denser traffic in the UK keeps speeds down, so accidents are less likely to be fatal. Also there has been a huge effort in the UK in recent years to reduce speeds - pretty much all of London is a 20 mph zone, and other towns and cities are following suit. Around me, Surrey County Council has been spending pots of money installing traffic islands to deter overtaking and reducing speed limits from 40 mph to 30 mph. Meanwhile wheel-destroying potholes go unfixed.

The emptier roads in rural France make motorcycling very pleasant on the whole, though there are always hazards, like tractors emerging and car drivers who want the whole width of the road.

Then again Surrey lanes are plagued with Range Rovers doing 50mph who don’t understand what passing places are for.

I think wherever you ride a motorcycle you have to treat all other road users as dangerous loons, and 'twas ever thus. :slight_smile:

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No one has mentioned the state of UK roads with all those very deep potholes that can kill people on two wheels of any sort. At least France does try and keep the roads in good condition, hence our taxe foncières increases. The last time I drove in the UK was in 2016 and I spent all the time keeping an eye on the road in front of me and avoiding damaging my car which I then had checked over by the local garage on my return, having hit a few of these holes. My niece had a nasty accident in her fiesta hitting one and being spun into a wall writing the car off. When I was over there last year for a funeral, the roads were still in the same bad state or even worse and patches done temporarily had broken up.

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Personally, OH and I treat all other road users as dangerous loons… :roll_eyes: :wink:

EDIT: and we drive 4-wheelers :+1:

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I have and use several motorcycles in the Gers and Pyrenees.
I used to do circa 20k miles a year in the SE England, France is paradise in comparison. The French can’t help enough when it comes to motorcycles and there are few things better than pootling along a rural French road on a sunny day, open face helmet and sunglasses.

Don’t live life not doing things because of a perceived risk, take sensible mitigating actions but above all else DO IT. If you don’t enjoy it then sell the bike and sit at home on your sofa watching TV avoiding all risk by staying inside.

You’re here once, life should be 1 magnificent experience.

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I have vehicles of various shapes and sizes but spend a lot of my time riding my motorcycles. I have a small dual sport that I use for local rides and a fair bit of my shopping and a mid sized bike that I use for weekends away and touring. I have never felt particularly vulnerable on French roads. As Chris has pointed out a basic rule for motorcycling is to be wary of other road users. I have my own peculiarities, in three and a half years my touring bike has never been on a motorway and rarely sees an N road. I avoid busy roads where a motorcycle can be vulnerable. Instead I take advantage of France’s wonderful D roads and plan routes to take advantage of those. Last summer I rode back from Alsace to SW France on nothing but D roads, a trip of 750km on empty roads perfect for motorcycling through beautiful countryside. For those who claim that you have to use fast roads to make progress that day proved them wrong. When motorcycling I am always aware of my vulnerability but always feel safer than I do cycling on the road. I wear protective clothing, including an air-bag on longer rides and my motorcycles, even before the CT are always very well maintained. I ride with self preservation as a priority but that does not mean that I don’t ride to enjoy the journey. I did downsize from the powerful Sports Tourer that I brought to France because it was too fast for public roads and riding it slowly removed so much of the pleasure. By far the most dangerous vehicle I drive is my VdC. It was built for a different age. It’s not fast enough to keep up with modern traffic, has weak brakes, skinny tyres and dodgy road holding. It also has no safety features whatsoever. The local backroads are perfect for it and I can drive for long periods without meeting or obstructing any other traffic.
If you want to enjoy a bit of motorcycling go for it. The French roads are great and overall French drivers are very bike aware. The area you are in is a real bijou, my travels often take me, my motorbike and my camping gear to or through the Lot.

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Forgive me, but not having a fun car and/or moto because of statistics is a bit extreme, no?

I have two moderen cars of 450bhp and 310bhp, and two ‘classic’ cars with 0-100km in 5 secs - all of which are an absolute joy to drive in France and an absolute nightmare to drive in the UK…

If you want one, then go for it… :joy:

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I think that is a teeny bit rich, seeing as I do the mad antics of numerous 2 wheelers and speaking as one who has been on a minimum of 4 and right up to around 30 wheels on the road since 1963. I never was so happy as when I passed my car test and got rid of that Beezer. :rofl: :joy:

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Chris was including those motorcyclists that you detest when he wrote that. Not everybody has to enjoy motorcycling and you are obviously one of those people who does not but please accept that for many of us it’s the best way to travel.

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Not suggesting that all drivers are loons, just that when on 2 wheels it’s prudent to treat them as if they are. :blush:

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Why does a motorcyclist overtake us when we are doing the speed limit… zoom off into the blue :wink: … and disregard all limits along the roads… until stopped by a Red traffic light.
It’s a complicated crossroad and the lights take their time… so he/she is stuck .

This happens regularly on a particular stretch of good road, through countryside and small villages…
OH chuckles when we grind to a halt behind the rider and wait for the lights to change…
The rider has risked an accident and ignored speed limits… and for what ???

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Some idiots riding bikes does not mean that everyone who rides a bike is an idiot. It’s not really useful to generalise otherwise we might think that Clarkson’s thoughts on the pastimes of truckers were correct.

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It’s called ‘me first’ :rofl:

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I am neutral to motos in general, and show respect, BUT I will always give way to an R1… :rofl:

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Snap.

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Hi David, excuse my ignorance, what is a VdC?
Also what model is the Honda in the photo please, I can’t make it out . . . . and what is your other bike (you mentioned having two).

I don’t disagree, but after a lifetime of doing them, I tend to do a subconscious risk assessment on everything I guess lol :wink: I have owned a motorbike in the past, albeit a long time ago . . .

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or in other words… the “me first” person realises they’re an absolute plonker and is hurrying off to find somewhere to hide themselves… :rofl:

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