THE UK Supreme Court Ruling on Women

Thank goodness that common sense has at last prevailed and the sex you were born as defines your definitive sex.
Spaces designated for women will be just that and so much safer for it.

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I can see your point but it is not as simple as that. Do women who have transed to men now have to use the female toilets? With all that their bristly chins and male garbs involve? And also, will those men who transed to women and got used to using the ā€˜ladies’ and now have to use the ā€˜gents’, continue to dress and look like women and thus cause a stir in that place to put it mildly.

I am not disagreeing with you and certainly not treating it lightly, but it may not be as simple as we might think.

I have no axe to grind either way as I have never been faced with such a situation. But there was one amusing episode many years ago when Fran and I stopped for a toilet break in an out of season rest area. She was dying for a pee and the only ones open were the mens’ urinals. She was forced to sit on one of those. Fortunately, ā€˜out of season’, meant no-one else was around.

Loo’s need to be Men, Women and Neutral - it would cut through almost all of the angst.

I’d say all should be neutral but I think that is too much of a cultural shift for the UK.

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It might well cut through the angst in the Mens’ and the Womens’, but I can imagine that the same would not be said of your 3rd option. There is no reason to believe that some of those required to go there would not be upset by it.

However I agree with your 4th option, providing that they were strictly separate, lockable cubicles. After all I have never been in a house where there were separate toilets for men and women, and we manage with that without too much problem.

But some might remember me bringing up the issue of the female health visitors to Fran who, quite understandably, had to go to the toilet here sometimes. My complaint was that non of them put the lid down afterwards despite the fact that my custom and practise meant that they always had to lift it up first. I have used the term ā€˜a bit rich’ earlier today here but that certainly came to mind when I often heard women complaining that men did not put the seat down after use. :roll_eyes:

I am a bit conflicted about this issue.

Firstly, there is no doubt that the safety of women must be paramount. However, I’m not sure the hysterics over men gaining access to ladies’ public loos and changing rooms mayn’t be a rather rare occurrence?

Next, for the most part I’m not sure I would ever notice if the person next to me at the :womens: handbasin was transgender. Who at the time’s going to kick up a fuss about someone just powdering their nose?

Lastly, I have been known to use the :mens: in an emergency. No one accosted me or even spoke. I was polite enough to look straight ahead and be quick. Would that now be an offence?

I’m just a bit concerned that all this righteous indignation reminds me of the arguments used against homosexuals in the past and I fear a creeping social intolerance.

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It makes sense to just adjust the seat how you want it when arriving in the loo, rather than expecting someone to have anticipated your wishes and adjusting it for the next user. If it’s left down and as a man I want it up, should I grumble? Of course not - and the same in reverse.

But I’m pleased to see this outcome, though expect it to be bitterly contested by the trans lobby, since it makes it impossible to actually change sex.

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I’m hoping this will reduce the social backlash against trans people by clearly laying out the law, this reduces ambiguity and therefore some of the space for hatemongers. Certainly it will be leveraged by some, but it feels a sensible path.

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There is a difference between seat and lid, at home I require both to be left in the down position. :wink: :grinning:

As to your 2nd point, I am not sure but, I hope you are right.

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Many a meeting at my previous work place. I tenedered that the word toilet has no gender.
The ladies wanted all inclusive washrooms (multiple toilets) I pointed out the difference to the general smell eminating from each knowing mens urine to smell stronger and did they wish to really have that, also seat up or down is that with urine stains or without? I know those factors put them off for the time being but I left due to covid so have no idea whats happend since but with 74 toilets on the premisses was it really needed.

Something I love about Toto seats - both seat and lid quietly close by themselves about 3 minutes after a person leaves them. Sigh!…

I’ll make a note of that, if the time comes when all those lovely ladies have to come back again, for me this time. I nearly made a little joke there along the lines of ā€˜can’t wait’, but then realised that it isn’t a joke for some.

One of our regulars had to go to the 50 year old man not far away to shower him. He might have had a stroke but he regularly declared his love for her 'till the time came when she had to tell him ā€˜I’ll do your back but I’m not washing your willy’. Fortunately she is only in her 50s herself and 6 foot tall so he had to obey her rules. Another one, Christine, had it written into her contract ā€˜I don’t do chaps’. :rofl:

I agree with you that there needs to be a clear definition and that science probably should be the determiner.

Having tried (zzzzz…) to read through the lengthy Supreme Court ruling, I’m hoping this will now clear up the patently ridiculously unfair situation of transgender (biologically male) women competing equally against biologically female women in sports. Although, this may leave the biological hermaphrodites in something of a no man’s/women’s land.

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Not quite as unusual as you think.
It quite oftekn happened at dances as there was always more men’s loos than women’s.
The girls would stand guard until the other girls had finished.

They are changing gender, not sex.

Back in the days when men drank pints, quite appropriate :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

It is not just loos. It is changing rooms and hospital wards.
When I was last in hospital I had requested a single room.
The only reason I got one was because all the rooms were occupied by one man and I was found a room on a floor other than where I should have been.

As a woman, if I am in a restroom with another person who looks like a woman, I’m certainly not going to check their genitalia.

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Agreed. I remember back in the early seventies being on a business trip round Europe and being slightly startled to find I was sharing the staff toilets with male colleagues in some countries. Sensible though.

At a pristine newbuild… some bright spark had decided that the toilet cubicles didn’t need doors :wink: similarly, the showers didn’t need any sort of closure/door/curtain et al…

that was taking ā€œopen planā€ a bit tooo far in the eyes of us female employees :rofl:

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When working in Sweden, unsure of local customs I wore swimming trunks in the sauna. The herdy gurdy englishman comnent I heard meant should be naked. Interesting they had separate changing areas. :joy: