I think it is basically mindset. People avoid being intrusive. I remember a long time ago in the UK you used to get phone calls from people who wanted to help you to “save money”. It seemed expected that you would happily tell a perfect stranger how much your mortgage was, how much you spent per year on telecoms, food, holidays etc and then they would tell you how to reorganise your finances. As if everybody wanted the same thing, ie to do everything to save money, disregarding the fact that people are individuals and maybe they have other prioritieseg they prefer to deal with certain organisations who may not be the cheapest. Maybe there is more of the herd mentality in France than there used to be but I think most professionals do avoid assuming that they know what you want because everybody is the same and one pattern fits all, and they wait for you to disclose your personal circumstances if you want personalized advice
Aren’t we all saying pretty much the same thing? It’s French!
We had windows fitted… ok… thanks very much… paid up online as we were still living in UK.
When we arrived at the house, I saw that the area around the windows was not “finished” as we’d expected… OH was hoping/ready to slap paint on the walls, but this was not possible… yet…
when I discussed with the builder… he answered (more or less)…
"you didn’t say you wanted me to provide a finish o the wall/window-recess ready for painting… you just said … replace the windows, which I have done.
Each window recess is draught-free… and only needs some plaster betwixt new windows and old walls to bring it to "ready to paint… but you didn’t ask me to do plastering… "
aaargh
Since then I’ve been very, very careful to go into the fine detail and not “assume” anything will be done which is not mentioned on the quote…
Why would you ever expect that anything will be done which is not mentioned on the quote?
when someone fitted a door and replacement windows in UK, they carefully filled the gaps betwixt it and the walls… (ie made good)… and left a surface which was smooth and ready to accept paint…
I had assumed this was normal…
it was a surprise to find this was “not normal” everywhere… but, once discovered… I simply went with the flow and detailed every last thought/wish…
It isn’t just tax advisors, as I see this in my own field of law. There are often too many variables to be able to communicate to a person as to what will or might happen, depending on the course of action they take, and it would take so long to get through them all, that the person receiving that information would then in the vast majority of cases be totally confused about any recommended course of action. In most instances, less is very much more. Of course, we would have to bill that time spent explaining all the ins and outs, for which clients can be quite reticent, especially if they decide in the end that they don’t want the nth degree of option 500 (I’m exaggerating, but not much). As a result, we cut down the options to a limited subset that we think the client can manage and which appears to cover the client’s main question with a more or less greater degree of satisfaction/success.
EDIT: something specific to accountants, straight from the horses mouth. My accountant has said to me on a number of occasions that historically, their clients saw them as pen pushing number crunchers, rather than as advice givers. This has made it difficult for them to wean their clients onto a business model in which number crunching is but one part of the activity (and increasingly automated), and be able to actually bill clients for advice given.
I do think there is something profoundly unsatisfactory about the approach of some professionals in France simply reacting to client questions (and I hasten to add that I’m quite sure @RicePudding and other highly skilled, experienced advisers don’t do that). However I’ve lost track of the number of times I thought that the client - generally not a {tax} specialist - was asking the ‘wrong’ questions, given their circumstances. I could have answered them, no doubt. Job done. But that wouldn’t either be in the client’s interests, or terribly helpful, or even professional…
One of my more inspirational partner bosses would often say to clients, for every question you ask me, I’m going to ask you 6 questions in return. He was obviously exaggerating but the intent was clear, ie to ensure that the questions the client should have asked - for their specific circumstances - were proactively posed - and answered…
I take the point about needing to recover the additional time through billing. I’m sure that it depends on the client base. The clients we were dealing with in the Big 4 were generally fairly sophisticated and usually (!) understood our billing practices.
This is why France feels like Germany to me these days. People won’t step outside of a prescribed box or sequence. It’s almost a fear reaction when they won’t.
I’m sure it hasn’t always been like this. Certainly when I firsr started learning French I always got the impression the French were much more rebellious and creative.
It’s something to beware of particularly when dealing with anything legal or, say, car mechanics.
Inevitably, the larger firms in my field tend to have the most automated and least “human” or “personalised” approaches, and unsurprisingly, they also tend to serve large clients. That doesn’t mean that they’re not intellectually brilliant, but that their focus is targeted on profitability, and spending 45 min on the phone with an individual or a SME is probably not high up on their list of priorities.
I try not to be like them, and I’m more likely to be brutally honest, than just accept what the client wants to do without questioning. If it means I spend more time than average discussing various points with a potential client, or handholding them through the process, and then they go elsewhere, so be it. They will find their happiness elsewhere, until the day when they discover that what they thought they had isn’t probably worth the paper it is written on, or suddenly comes with a ton of “out-of-the-hat” caveats. The way the innovation system is set up in France makes potential clients look for subsidies (especially the small businesses), and if they can’t get them, they tend not to follow up. Sometimes, even when I might advise a client that their endeavour is likely a lost cause or will cost them far more than the benefit they will receive, they will proceed nonetheless. That is naturally their responsibility as adults. And yes, we get the occasional loon, but fortunately, we are not obliged to take on a client if we feel uncomfortable with it.
EDIT: oh, and apologies for the thread drift !
Yes, but never the professional classes.
That’s normal abroad too, if one has an “execution only” relationship, sobeit. Advice is extra
Wasn’t that how the Republic was born?
I was think more of brokers Though I’ve met a few of them that people might want to shoot.
Wasn’t farage a broker? He certainly seems to be good at breaking things…
“In dark wood-panelled pubs, such as the Jamaica Wine House and Simpson’s Tavern, in narrow stone streets near the City’s Leadenhall Market, Mr Farage spent his career drinking with the tight-knit fraternity that traded on the LME.”
FT February 6 2015
LME = London Metals Exchange, where Farage pere, Guy Justus Oscar, was a well-known, hard-drinking stockbroker. Trebles all round
Farag was a stockbroker? It all falls into place now
Some very interesting things on this thread! Thank you!
Nearly fifty years ago, one of my brothers who was doing a degree in Hotel Management and Catering, did his first work experience at Simpsons., who were renowned for their C18th wooden carving trollies and which he reckoned must have been a potential major health hazard.
OTOH Maybe in those days, diners’ innards were already so pickled in claret that they were proof against such relatively minor threats. When I was an undergrad, one year our lodger (gf and I had a lease) subscrcibed to The Times and I still remember a reader’s letter from an address in the Inns of Court that suggested a magnum of claret was perfect for un déjeuner à deux.