Will my visa plan work?

Moving to or from France
1

Bonjour!

Apologies in advance, this will be a long first post.

Myself and my partner sadly were unable to move to France before the Brexit deadline due to ill health.

After initially giving up on the idea of moving, we decided not to let brexit stop us, and have spent the past year building up a remote consultancy business, which now is earning well over the minimum income requirement for a self employed visa.

We are currently operating as a limited company in the UK, with the two of us as directors and I also have a small amount of work in a slightly different area which I do as a sole trader.

Our current plan is to eventually turn my sole trader work into a limited company, with us both, plus one other family member based in the UK as directors, and then also add a family member based in the UK as a director to our existing limited company.

We would then create a business plan both as self employed individuals in France, and both invoice the two uk companies, to get around the one client issue. I am hoping that this will enable us both to get a self employed visa. We would take all our income from invoicing the UK companies, we will not be taking any dividends due to high tax.

I also have a back up plan of using an umbrella company and applying for an inter company transfer visa but ive not looked into this in much detail yet and belive it will be very expensive, but i have this to look into as a back up plan.

Do any of the very experienced members on this forum have any advice on the above? I am really hoping that this will work for us- otherwise back to the drawing board, as we will definitely move to france!

Ps I am very pleased to have found this board, as I currently have a document titled ‘move to France before I’m 30’ which currently has around 35 points I still need to find answers for!

Thank you!

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2

I would also look into setting up a company in France, and moving your business into this entity. What structure will depend on turnover. Even tho’ this will mean you pay tax, social charges and cotisations in France (which are higher than UK) you may find this much more straightforward in the long run. It also will give you immediate access to health cover rather than having to pay for private health insurance ro start with. And if you plan to make France your permanent home it will build up rights here.

And a cheaper option t han portage salarial.

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3

Thank you very much @JaneJones this is another option I’d not considered.

The main issue would be most of our clients are in the UK (with one client in Austria), but i wonder if the French entity could be a ‘back office’ type set up.

Thank you - thats very helpful.

4

Doesn’t matter where your clients are. Lots of French companies that cater to people outside France,

In terms of your visa, I also don’t know of anyone who has got an entrepreneurial visa for a business outside France. Most in a similar situation seem to take passive income via a Director’s salary and then have a visitor visa. Obviously health care has to be paid for separately. But it may be possible to get this visa without a French structure, just that I don’t know.

The wrinkle of moving your business over is whether it falls under any of the regulated activities, in which case it could be difficult as your qualifications would not be valid here.

(Edit, I’ve just re-read that you plan to have an auto-entrepreneur visa, not an entrepreneur. I misread it. Sorry).

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To my untrained eyes there seems to be a plethora of different structures for conducting business in France and each with very different tax implications. If it were me I would speak with several French accountants, expert contables, to identify the best and then select them to run your books.

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Typo, they are comptables.

When speaking to one/them it is best to first identify the issues quite clearly. My experience in France is that professionals only answer the questions you ask based on the info you provide. They don’t then say “but ahh, madame, you’ve not considered X which would completely change the advice I would give”.

We have been caught out like that, and when querying why they proposed a less than ideal solution because it didn’t take into account a pretty obvious factor the reply was “but you didn’t ask that’.

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A micro entrepreneur invoicing a company that they are a director of, is not acceptable in France unless it’s a different activity. Eg if you own an IT company your company cannot subcontract you as a micro entrepreneur to provide IT services to clients. But if you also happen to have a side hustle as an electrician micro entrepreneur, you can rewire your IT company’s premises and bill them because it is a different activity.
With your companies being registered in a different country it would be unlikely to be flagged up immediately if at all. But I cannot help but feel it would be better to do it all above board. If you want to move to France and run a business then do it, set up a French company, don’t try to keep a foot in the UK.

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Thank you very much! Incredibly helpful advice. Just the task of finding a good accountant!

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Thank you for this. Its very important that it is all above board, especially for the industry I’m in.
Some of my bigger uk clients wouldnt work with me as a French company- I think that while very expensive, either opening a french branch or an umbrella company is going to be the way forward.

Thanks again!

11

Thank you!

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Thank you! I dont use facebook but I may have a very old account somewhere I can look at!

13

But presumably they will be aware that you are providing the services from France and are no longer a UK resident?
So I wonder what difference it would make to them if the invoice is from a French company.

14

Before considering “how” have you really considered “why”?

There’s many ways to skin a cat, but one can choose different options based on your ultimate goal :slightly_smiling_face:

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The why is the easy part of this!

I spent every summer holiday as a teenager in France, staying with my best friends extended family (she was French living in the UK), and many holidays as a child. I absolutly love the culture, the scenery, the villages, the language- everything apart from the food as Im a vegetarian!

I want any future children to have the childhood my friends French cousins had, and relive this a bit myself :smile:

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16

Rereading your post, there are in any case likely to be issues with two people living together, both registering as micro entrepreneurs doing the same or related activities and both invoicing the same clients. Two people claiming to be indépendants but working together from the same address and sharing the same clients, can be requalified by URSSAF as a société.

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Thank you very much again - such helpful advice! Yes ive been doing a bit of research this evening and I think we are going to have to set up a French company, which is fine.

The UK clients would have no issue with us living in France, but they would want to be invoiced by a UK company. We will also shortly be employing staff in the UK, so this is to consider also.

18

It would be so interesting to know why they do this. I’ve noticed similar from many years of dealing professionally with fellow tax advisers from France. I’ve often wondered if it’s rooted in their professional training, or is it driven by fear of exposure to legal or insurance liability, or maybe it’s a cultural mindset, or a mixture of the above. Either way, it doesn’t exactly serve their clients best interests


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We see it all the time from plumbers, builder, to shop assistants, to our neighbours. I think it’s the “'Ă©galitĂ©â€ thing and not wanting to insult someone by implying that they are more ignorant than you.

There can be benefits in choosing to use a Brit as a builder over French one. I know the reaction is to say “on the black” but a British builder is much more likely to offer suggestions, come up with a creative solution if there is an issue.

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Not just tax advisers, to me this is embedded very deeply in French culture. From the cashier who cannot decide unilaterally that the price showing on her screen is blatantly wrong and should just do a manual entry of price stuck on the packet, to an expert who cannot even peek his or her nose outside the box and will only tell you a standard response whether appropriate or not

I blame it on Napoleon. The difference is huge between a common law approach where essentially if it’s not forbidden then it’s ok, to one based on statutes where you do what is written down. This article about hoa this affects european:uk relations is interesting (to me of course) and explains the gulf quite well.

Although a more lighthearted response from a journalist is

« A jocular saying is that, in England, “everything which is not forbidden is allowed”, while in Germany, the opposite applies, so “everything which is not allowed is forbidden”. This may be extended to France—“everything is allowed even if it is forbidden”. ».

Although France of course is schizophrenic about that, and will switch to german approach whenever that suits.

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