Some things I didn't know about Donation entre Epoux

Went to see the Notaire today with some preconceived notions about DeE.
Some bad but mostly good.

Bad first. My share of my wife’s share of our house and possessions diminishes the older I get.
Although I don’t want to, this would make it even more impossible to return to live in England.

The 2 cars that were always in my name are part of the pot, she owned half of them because they were bought from our joint account. Not important but might be a bit more complicated if I wanted to sell them.

The costs of the gravestone and surrounds cannot be paid from her LEP so must be borne by me. Fair enough, half of that grave is mine to keep, one day. :smiley:

The good, My bank was wrong to say that Fran’s LEP savings account was totally frozen to me at the moment of her death. It is in fact only closed to me until the whole succession regarding her children is sorted out. That could be sometime but it doesn’t matter to me as I was not counting on that money anyway.

He confirmed that the funeral expenses can be paid directly by the bank to the Pompe Funebre from that account though, just as we thought, but once the succession is sorted the whole of what is left is mine because of my rights of usufrut until I die, so none of it goes to her children. Until I die. They, and I, were under the impression that the remainder of that account was split between us immediately, not so.

One of the things I was tasked to do to bring to this meeting was to list all details of her children, so that the succession can be formalised. Out of contact, by their choice, of the 2 sons and since 2 years, of the daughter, the only way to get this information was for me to write to the daughter. She, presumably sensing their monetary advantage, was quick to reply giving all details of names, dates of birth, dates of marriage, profession and bank detalis. In doing so, though it doesn’t matter to me, the details of the son in Ireland who changed all his details to avoid contact, has now given me everything.

However, something else has occurred to delay matters. The eldest son, who nearly died and was hospitalised due to alcoholism and then immediately sought refuge in the pub (he was there when I visited to try and regain contact last year so I never saw him) has not been able, apparently, to list his own details. The information came from his Dad, the father with whom he was estranged. This has given rise to the suspicion by the Notaire that he is not mentally competant and therefore may need some sort of guardian to act on his behalf. More delays

He gave me 3 tasks.
Get a valuation of the house and terrain, aleady started that with a message to the estate agent friend who sold it to us over 30 years ago.
Find the deeds to the house or, if I can’t, pay another €50 to the €50 already paid, for them to get copies themselves.
Try to find out by contact with the daughter and/or Fran’s 1st husband, what the situation is with the eldest son.

None of this affects me adversely apart from the cost of the headstone, so all in all a very good hour and a half spent. He even invited Jules into the office because he saw me walking him in the grounds while I was waiting. :joy:

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Sounds like you are making progress David - well done!

And thumbs up to the Jules-friendly notaire!

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It does sound as though you have an OK notaire.

Francis, our friend the estate agent who sold us the place 31 years ago has just left after doing a valuation at the bidding of the Notaire. It makes no difference to me what the figure he comes up with is because it is only for the Notaire to inform the 3 successors of their share on my demise.

I told you in another thread about my hoarding, and we all laughed, but that has depressed the price and furthermore he asked me if I will leave things as they are or buy them out. It hadn’t occurred to me to do this and it is something worth thinking about if the 3 of them see it as a way to get paid sooner or wait till I die at the grand old age of 100 +.

So I will wait 'till the succession is done and dusted and they are dismayed at getting nothing straightaway, and then make them an offer which I hope they can’t refuse.

BTW, for those who don’t know ‘ecureuil’ is the French word for hoarder. I like that, I have always liked those little rascals. :joy:

Apologies for being nosy but why might you want to use your cash to buy them out?
Is it to give you more options in case you ever wanted to move elsewhere?
Obviously don’t answer if you don’t want to.

At least 2 reasons. I rather resent the ease with which they profit from their mother’s death as they ignored her for so many years in life even though knowing how ill she was.

Secondly, to make the succession for my own 2 children easier. My son has long expressed a wish to one day live here, something that he could only do if he bought the others out himself, and he might not be in a position to do so, whereas I might be, now.

Although I knew French law when we came here and bought, proved by the eagerness that we embraced Donation Entre Epoux, to safeguard the ongoing life of the survivor, whichever of us it might be, I can’t say that I approve of it. As a general rule I do not approve of automatic inheritance, I prefer appropriate inheritance, but we are where we are so must make the best of it.

You make a good point about moving elsewhere though. It is a good thing that I have no desire to move from here because I am sure that, only actually owning half of my efforts over the years, there is no way that I could raise enough money to do so.

OK David, thanks for explaining.
I’m approaching retirement and wondering where to go next, if anywhere. Moving anywhere seems like such a hassle it’s tempting to just tart up the flat a bit and stay put.

I’m being nosy again. If moving was an option, would you move? And if so, where?

Sorry, I’ve just re-read your reply and realised you don’t want to move!

If nobody was nosey there wouldn’t be a forum, of course I don’t think that. There was a thread a short while ago asking for people’s 2nd choice, assuming France was the first, of places to live. My 2nd choice would be Australia, but times have changed, the last time I lived there I was told at immigration that as a British citizen I had the right to live there just as much as any Australian. Times have changed, long gone since British people were welcomed anywhere as of right.

I have been checking the post every day waiting for the arrival of the bill for Fran’s funeral. We have been told that we must give it to the bank to pay it directly from Fran’s savings account. I have had strict intructions from Marie-Paule to give it straight to her so that she can make sure it is all done correctly.

The bill arrived today in the post and I opened it to make sure that it was for the same amount as the devis.

A note at the bottom says in signed hand writing ‘Facture acquittee par virement bancaire le 02 Juillet 2024.’

Just going to check the joint account and my savings one to make sure they have indeed paid it from the correct one.

This should be a new title/thread perhaps, such as
Incompetant Notaire and/or Vengeful Inheritors?

When I went to the Notaire the other day to get a signature on my marriage certificate for the Newcastle pensions people, I took the opportunity to ask how the succession was going, and thus when I might expect the remaining money in Fran’s savings account to be released to me.

I was told that the woman in another office handling our case, had left the job and it had been handed to someone else. They would investigate and get back to me.

Had a phone call not long ago which has left me angry. They say she sent me an email last July asking me to send 3 documents to them. They must have sent it to the wrong address because I check my spam filter several times a day and I have definitely not received anything.

Apparently the same demand was made of the 3 children of Fran. Likewise no replies. So I asked if none of them ever replied, for whatever reason but including spite, would the succession never be confirmed and thus the €5,000 or so left in it, from which I was going to pay the headstone bill of €4,500, would never be available to me. The answer was yes :astonished: Bear in mind that our 2 LEPs, though in individual names, were controlled by both of us and built up in the same way.

Those 3 never showed any interest in Fran’s welfare for many years and only got back in touch when she died, in fact I had 4 emails in the first 2 days from the daughter, nothing from the others. The last email from her was the 25th of August, nearly 2 months after she, and her brothers, should have received the request from the Notaire.

So who is at fault here, the Notaire’s employee who left her post at a vital time, and the person who was delegated to take over, or the 3 kids who are, to say the least, lax in response. It isn’t enough to say that they have no motive, because it is their inheritance as well as mine, but because they were told that they would get nothing 'till I die (because of Donation Entre Epoux), they might well think ‘no money now, don’t care’.

So, next job for me is an email to Sue, the only one who has contact with me, and see where we go from there.

But I am shocked to learn that a vindictive successor could delay the process indefinitely, and also that a Notaire’s office would not follow up 4 important emails, and with apparently no intention of doing so, for more than 4 months. A salutary warning for us all, do not assume that others are efficient and keep pushing.

Note @billybutcher if you feel this should be a new thread, fair enough by me.

This sort of posting is very important to posters if they have re-married/divorced etc and there are children involved of any age. This is the sort of succession that can be a nightmare and as David is finding out, not always as straightforward as you might have been lead to believe. I remember going to the Notaire at the start of the process and he showed me hundreds of emails he had received within the past week but had no time allowed to deal with any of them unless he was “off duty” at home and then only a few. I have heard of succession stories that have taken years and years to sort out because of complex issues and non-agreement by just one party about something. I hope you manage to get sorted soon David, you don’t need this aggro just now.

Thank you @Shiba (it’s working again :roll_eyes:), I have since my last post received a request to send an email to the woman who has taken took the case in the other office confirming my phone call from the main office.

I wrote in English as that is the language used by both the previous women but said that if she preferred I would write it in French but that would take longer and I made the point that it is urgent being now 4 months since the requests were allegedly sent, and there are bills to be paid.

I have also written to Fran’s daughter asking if she and her brothers received the email and to let me know urgently, making the point that the money for the headstone, which she had been very keen to have a photo of, is being held up by the delay. I have told her which 3 documents are needed from each of them, and me, copies of births, marriages and passports so I hope, whoever is at fault, they will soon be forthcoming.

I’m struggling to believe those emails were ever sent out by the notaire’s office.

I’d ask for the email Sent copies to be Forwarded to me immediately. If they get stroppy sbout sending you what they say they sent to the kids, then tell them to forward the Sent copies to the same receivers again then. (as you know you’re in comms with one of them even if not all of them so you can at least confirm and examine what “was” sent with that one.)

Tell them that having the timestamped Sent copy will.enable you to check your computer as you will know time and date to check. If pushed I might even be frank that this is so serious you’re anxious to start with the proof.

My gut feeling is they’re lying tbrough their teeth, and that the person they say left, was effectively out of the office far longer ago than the time they “left” and that there could well be much more have gone on and not just them leaving.

Then can you make personal appointments at their premises to push/progress/expedite things in future?

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I will be contacting them today, main office and the satellite, to tell them the result of my reply from Sue, Fran’s daughter, and her promise to question her brothers, also that I have done my own copies and can I have rdv to deliver them, rather than by email, which they seem to have a problem with.

No movement of any kind from the Notaire, indeed 2 emails bounced back ‘undelivered’ despite being replies to the emails they sent me.

None either from the kids so yesterday I emailed the one I have contact with, the daughter, Sue, and putting it as gently as I could, that I haven’t heard from her about the 3 of them sending the 3 required documents.

Today I got a reply which says that she has both hers and the eldest brother’s documents but they can’t see why they should send them and are uneasy to send me details that I already have :roll_eyes:. Apart from anything else it lends credence to the Notaire’s suspicion that the eldest isn’t mentally able to speak for himself.

She also suggests that I contact the younger son in Ireland and give him all the reasons for doing so. This I have done through gritted teeth because, if the other two neglected her for so many years, he actively cut himself off from her to the extent of changing the email addresses we had for him.

I have told Sue that if she, and others don’t want to comply they can always reject the inheritance bearing in mind that it isn’t worth much to them anyway, sharing a third of half of something thay can’t get near 'till I kick the bucket and even then they will have to pay 60% tax on it.

I still don’t know what happens if they do nothing, that is, refuse to send the docs but at the same time refuse to reject. As the Notaire’s people are so useless and uncontactable I have decided to take printouts of my 2 rejected emails to them personally, and bring them up to date and seek an answer to my question, what happens if they simply refuse to take part? Will they be automatically disqualified as inheritors and will the Notaire release Fran’s savings accont to me so that I can pay the useless macons when, if ever, they install the headstone and surrounds, promised for the 1st of November.

A final question for anybody who knows, can I sack the Notaire and approach another one to replace them?

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The short answer is ‘yes’ - all explained in this guide from the notaires.fr website.

No advice from me but just to say that I am so sorry you are having to deal with all this nonsense David - both from the children and from the notaire.

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Agreed…

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You’re coping with all this cr*p remarkably well. I would have spontaneously combusted by now.

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